{"id":267,"date":"2020-09-02T04:00:00","date_gmt":"2020-09-02T04:00:00","guid":{"rendered":"https:\/\/thoughts.need.management\/?p=267"},"modified":"2020-09-04T15:38:16","modified_gmt":"2020-09-04T15:38:16","slug":"problems-with-the-case-for-christ-chapter-9","status":"publish","type":"post","link":"https:\/\/thoughts.need.management\/index.php\/2020\/09\/02\/problems-with-the-case-for-christ-chapter-9\/","title":{"rendered":"Problems With The Case for Christ: Chapter 9"},"content":{"rendered":"\n<div class=\"wp-block-columns is-layout-flex wp-container-core-columns-is-layout-9d6595d7 wp-block-columns-is-layout-flex\">\n<div class=\"wp-block-column is-layout-flow wp-block-column-is-layout-flow\">\n<p><a href=\"https:\/\/thoughts.need.management\/index.php\/2020\/09\/01\/problems-with-the-case-for-christ-chapter-8\/\">PWTCFC: Chapter 8<\/a><\/p>\n<\/div>\n\n\n\n<div class=\"wp-block-column is-layout-flow wp-block-column-is-layout-flow\">\n<p class=\"has-text-align-right\"><a href=\"https:\/\/thoughts.need.management\/index.php\/2020\/09\/03\/problems-with-the-case-for-christ-chapter-10\/\">PWTCFC: Chapter 10<\/a><\/p>\n<\/div>\n<\/div>\n\n\n\n<p>This chapter opens with a brief analogy of how sketch artists can assist in tracking down the perpetrators of a crime. Strobel then goes on to describe how &#8220;[Strobel:] The Old Testament provides numerous details about God that sketch out in great specificity what he&#8217;s like&#8221; (Strobel, CFC, P. 170). He then proceeds to list off the following characteristics that he finds in the old testament. I&#8217;ve provided commentary in parenthesis on where you&#8217;ll find this refuted.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<ul class=\"wp-block-list\"><li>Omnipresent (Not according to Genesis)<\/li><li>Omniscient (Also not according to Genesis)<\/li><li>Omnipotent (Maybe, but not likely. Genesis shows him flexing very little power overall)<\/li><li>Immutable (Changes his mind often in the Old Testament, has a makeover in the New)<\/li><li>Loving (The genocidal flood in Genesis would like to disagree)<\/li><li>Righteous (By god&#8217;s definition only&#8230;.)<\/li><li>Wise (Not according to Genesis. Would a wise being flood the earth, or find another way?)<\/li><li>Just (More like endorses wholesale slaughter and murder of nonbelievers in Genesis)<\/li><\/ul>\n\n\n\n<p>Much like many other Christians I&#8217;ve talked with, Strobel is presuming the authenticity of the bible and going on a massive cherry picking expedition.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>Strobel goes on to say &#8220;[Strobel:] &#8230;if we examine Jesus carefully, does his likeness match the sketch of God that we find elsewhere in the bible? If it doesn&#8217;t, we can conclude that his claim to being God is false.&#8221; (Strobel, CFC, P. 170). This sounds like a pretty open and shut case then. The god of the old testament is shown to be  god who <a href=\"https:\/\/thoughts.need.management\/index.php\/2020\/06\/18\/genesis-annotated-chapter-3\/\">is fickle<\/a>, <a href=\"https:\/\/thoughts.need.management\/index.php\/2020\/06\/18\/genesis-annotated-chapter-3\/\">doesn&#8217;t explain things<\/a>, <a href=\"https:\/\/thoughts.need.management\/index.php\/2020\/06\/18\/genesis-annotated-chapter-3\/\">sets up people to fail<\/a>, <a href=\"https:\/\/thoughts.need.management\/index.php\/2020\/06\/18\/genesis-annotated-chapter-3\/\">is<\/a> <a href=\"https:\/\/thoughts.need.management\/index.php\/2020\/06\/19\/genesis-annotated-chapter-4\/\">not<\/a> <a href=\"https:\/\/thoughts.need.management\/index.php\/2020\/06\/24\/genesis-annotated-chapter-11\/\">omniscient<\/a>, <a href=\"https:\/\/thoughts.need.management\/index.php\/2020\/06\/19\/genesis-annotated-chapter-6\/\">is genocidal<\/a>, <a href=\"https:\/\/thoughts.need.management\/index.php\/2020\/06\/19\/genesis-annotated-chapter-6\/\">is unwise<\/a>, <a href=\"https:\/\/thoughts.need.management\/index.php\/2020\/06\/24\/genesis-annotated-chapter-11\/\">despises communication<\/a>, <a href=\"https:\/\/thoughts.need.management\/index.php\/2020\/06\/24\/genesis-annotated-chapter-12\/\">punishes people for things that aren&#8217;t their fault<\/a>, and <a href=\"https:\/\/thoughts.need.management\/index.php\/2020\/06\/27\/genesis-annotated-chapter-15\/\">condemns thousands to slavery<\/a>&#8230; all within the first 15 chapters of the old testament.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>Rather than this being a &#8220;[Strobel:] &#8230;complex and mind-stretching issue&#8221;  (Strobel, CFC, P. 170), this is primarily an attempt to persuade the reader with just as much evidence and effort as he put into the last 2 chapters. All the &#8220;issues&#8221; that Strobel brings up are explained away by saying Jesus intentionally limited himself while here on earth.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>In this chapter, Strobel interviews Dr. Donald A. Carson.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<h2 class=\"has-text-align-center wp-block-heading\">Living and Forgiving Like god<\/h2>\n\n\n\n<p>When asked why he believes Jesus is divine, Dr. Carson says &#8220;[Dr. Carson:] Once could point to such things as his miracles&#8230; &#8230; but other people have done miracles, so while this may be indicative, it&#8217;s not decisive.&#8221; (Strobel, CFC, P. 171). I&#8217;d like to see what sorts of things Dr. Carson considers a miracle if they&#8217;re common enough that many people besides his deity have done them. As far as I&#8217;ve seen in my life, the amount of miracles performed by anyone is exactly 0. <\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>The rest of the chapter is taking the historical reliability of the gospels as a fact. As shown in the problems with chapters 2 and 3, we can not take the gospels to be historically reliable. Any proof furnished must come from outside sources. I&#8217;ll go over a few of the issues in this chapter anyways.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>Dr. Carson quotes the gospels as &#8220;evidence&#8221; that Jesus is god saying &#8220;[Dr. Carson:] &#8216;Who can forgive sins but God alone?&#8217; To my mind, that is one of the most striking things Jesus did.&#8221; (Strobel, CFC, P. 172). To someone who is not a believer in Christianity or any sort of theism, this is a very unconvincing argument. You&#8217;re telling me that the made up god who says you&#8217;re bad is the only one who can forgive you? And because the bible says Jesus could, he&#8217;s the same guy? This requires several unsubstantiated leaps of logic.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>Not only does the argument ignore perspectives outside of Christianity, but Strobel helps Dr. Carson out by saying &#8220;Not only did Jesus forgive sin&#8230; &#8230;but he asserted that he himself was without sin. And certainly sinlessness is an attribute of a deity.&#8221; (Strobel, CFC, P. 172). This continues the made up sin narration and shows that Strobel is fully committed to Christianity at this point. The only reason we have to believe this claim of &#8220;sinlessness&#8221; is a book written by people who literally worshiped this guy. Of course there&#8217;s going to be some far out claims.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<h2 class=\"has-text-align-center wp-block-heading\">Mystery of the Incarnation<\/h2>\n\n\n\n<p>Strobel asks Dr. Carson &#8220;[Strobel:] &#8230;how in the world could Jesus be omnipresent if he couldn&#8217;t be in two places at once? &#8230; the bible itself seems to argue against Jesus being god.&#8221; (Strobel, CFC, P. 172). Dr. Carson gives two ideas to try explain this. To paraphrase, that Jesus was fully human and simply lived in accordance with god&#8217;s desires, or Jesus simply limited his powers while here.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>Dr. Carson overlooks the simplest explanation of all that we should have started the interview off with: that we should start with the idea of a human like any other and search for proof of any outlandish claims rather than assuming the claims true. Strobel decides that a limited form of divinity that &#8220;&#8230;finite minds couldn&#8217;t totally comprehend&#8230;&#8221; (Strobel, CFC, P. 175) is good enough for him and moves on.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<h2 class=\"has-text-align-center wp-block-heading\">Creator or Created?<\/h2>\n\n\n\n<p>This section is a theological debate over whether or not Jesus was created by god, or if Jesus is god himself. It sets up an either-or fallacy which is ultimately worthless because it still presupposes the historical accuracy of the bible&#8230; how exciting! Based on the leading question, this section is intended to set up a case for evidence for Jesus as god&#8230; something that is called into severe question if the bible is not historically accurate.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<h2 class=\"has-text-align-center wp-block-heading\">Was Jesus a Lesser God?<\/h2>\n\n\n\n<p>This section doesn&#8217;t really make a clear case for whether or not Jesus is a lesser god or equal to the god of gods that the bible says made everything. It&#8217;s a trivial interpretation of the phrase &#8220;the Father is greater than I&#8221; that could really be taken in several different ways. Given what Christians believe, which interpretation do you think was cherry picked?<\/p>\n\n\n\n<h2 class=\"has-text-align-center wp-block-heading\">The Disquieting Question of Hell<\/h2>\n\n\n\n<p>This section shows how far Dr. Carson will go to rationalize viewpoints that have no support for them.  Jesus in Luke 13:24-28, states that many people will seek to be in heaven, but few will achieve it. AKA: Many will end up in hell. Dr. Carson makes a theological argument against that without any evidence and literally speaks for God throughout a lot of the chapter.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>Dr. Carson, with no evidence provided, states &#8220;[Dr. Carson:] &#8230;I&#8217;m not sure that god simply casts people into hell because they don&#8217;t accept certain beliefs.&#8221;(Strobel, CFC, P. 179). He further states a little later about hell that &#8220;[Dr. Carson:] It&#8217;s filled with people who, for all eternity, still want to be at the center of the universe and who persist in their God-defying rebellion&#8221; (Strobel, CFC, P. 180).<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>There is no mention of this throughout the bible. In Matthwew 13:51, it certainly sounds like beliefs are required to escape from the punishment of hell. According to John 10:7-18, it certainly sounds like a belief in Jesus specifically is required to escape hell. Having &#8220;certain beliefs&#8221; certainly seems to be a prerequisite to receiving your &#8220;get-out-of-hell free card&#8221;. <\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>Dr. Carson also argues that, even if people do get sent to hell, &#8220;[Dr. Carson:] &#8230;that there are different degrees of punishment&#8230;&#8221; (Strobel, CFC, P. 180). Even if this is the case and carried out in the bible, is it truly a good or just thing to have someone being tormented for all of eternity? In the end, there&#8217;s no good reason that a truly just god wouldn&#8217;t be able to find a better method than hell.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>As an aside, Dr. Carson appears to hold the belief that &#8220;[Dr. Carson:] [Hell is] &#8230;filled with people who, for all eternity, still want to be at the center of the universe&#8230;&#8221; (Strobel, CFC, P. 180). Weirdly, Strobel, who claims to be an atheist, doesn&#8217;t counter this claim. One of the most life changing realizations many atheists have had is the feeling that, in the grand scheme of things, they are nothing more than a speck living atop a floating marble in the vast emptiness of space. Atheism actually promotes the worldview that you are not the center rather than the special individual centric religious viewpoint Christianity offers. <\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>To give an analogy of how ridiculously stupid the concept of hell is, just imagine sentencing a child to being beaten for the rest of their life because they took a cookie from a cookie jar once without asking. In the grand scheme of an eternity, all of a person&#8217;s lifetime mess-ups would be just as inconsequential a few thousand  to a few million years down the line. Could you truly say &#8220;[Dr. Carson:] &#8230;no one will be able to complain by saying, &#8216;This isn&#8217;t fair&#8217; &#8221; (Strobel, CFC, P. 180) about such a punishment?<\/p>\n\n\n\n<h2 class=\"has-text-align-center wp-block-heading\">Jesus and Slavery\/Overthrowing Oppression<\/h2>\n\n\n\n<p>These two are so closely tied together that they may as well be in the same section.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>Strobel brings up the fact that Jesus  never denounced slavery, which seems to be a method of supporting it. He asks Dr. Carson &#8220;[Strobel:] Why didn&#8217;t Jesus stand up and shout, &#8216;Slavery is wrong&#8217;?&#8221; (Strobel, CFC, P. 181). Dr. Carson proceeds to gloss over why Jesus didn&#8217;t end slavery because &#8220;[Dr. Carson:]  &#8230;he did not come to overturn the Roman economic system, which included slavery. He came to free men and women from their sins.&#8221; (Strobel, CFC, P. 182). Dr. Carson concludes that, while Jesus didn&#8217;t come to free slaves, the abolition of slavery today was because &#8220;[Dr. Carson]: Christians rammed abolition through Parliament in the beginning of the nineteenth century&#8221; (Strobel, CFC, P. 183)<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>This doesn&#8217;t hold much water when you look at it from outside the romanticized Christian worldview that Strobel (Through Dr. Carson) is trying to push on us. If ending slavery was a long term goal of coming to preach, then why is that that, after only a few centuries of the Enlightment era starting, slavery was stopped? Christians had control of Britain and large portions of Europe for a long time before then. Why wasn&#8217;t slavery abolished within a few centuries of Christianity starting rather than almost 2000 years? Why was it that only after the age of enlightenment started did abolition arguments start to gain traction?<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>Strangely, Dr. Carson leaves out other references to slavery coming from Paul, such as in Ephesians 6:5, where Paul says &#8220;Slaves, obey your earthly masters with respect and fear and sincerity of heart, just as you would show to Christ&#8221;. I don&#8217;t know how Dr. Carson would interpret this, but to me, it sounds very much like an endorsement of slavery.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<h2 class=\"has-text-align-center wp-block-heading\">Matching the Sketch of God<\/h2>\n\n\n\n<p>The conclusion for this chapter takes the gospels as a fact. Strobel&#8217;s claim that &#8220;[Strobel:] &#8230;according to the Bible, the fact that it [Jesus&#8217;s Incarnation] did occur is not in any doubt. Every attribute of God, says the New Testament, is found in Jesus Christ.&#8221; (Strobel, CFC, P. 184).<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>Contrary to Strobel&#8217;s claim, there is great doubt to believe any of this still. He has failed to present a clear case in any chapter so far, and this chapter continues to be just as ineffective.<\/p>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"<p>PWTCFC: Chapter 8 PWTCFC: Chapter 10 This chapter opens with a brief analogy of how sketch artists can assist in tracking down the perpetrators of a crime. Strobel then goes on to describe how &#8220;[Strobel:] The Old Testament provides numerous details about God that sketch out in great specificity what he&#8217;s like&#8221; (Strobel, CFC, P. &hellip; <\/p>\n<p class=\"link-more\"><a href=\"https:\/\/thoughts.need.management\/index.php\/2020\/09\/02\/problems-with-the-case-for-christ-chapter-9\/\" class=\"more-link\">Continue reading<span class=\"screen-reader-text\"> &#8220;Problems With The Case for Christ: Chapter 9&#8221;<\/span><\/a><\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":1,"featured_media":0,"comment_status":"open","ping_status":"open","sticky":false,"template":"","format":"standard","meta":{"footnotes":""},"categories":[24],"tags":[17,25],"class_list":["post-267","post","type-post","status-publish","format-standard","hentry","category-challenging-apologist-literature","tag-chapter-9","tag-the-case-for-christ"],"_links":{"self":[{"href":"https:\/\/thoughts.need.management\/index.php\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/267","targetHints":{"allow":["GET"]}}],"collection":[{"href":"https:\/\/thoughts.need.management\/index.php\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts"}],"about":[{"href":"https:\/\/thoughts.need.management\/index.php\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/types\/post"}],"author":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/thoughts.need.management\/index.php\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/users\/1"}],"replies":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/thoughts.need.management\/index.php\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/comments?post=267"}],"version-history":[{"count":8,"href":"https:\/\/thoughts.need.management\/index.php\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/267\/revisions"}],"predecessor-version":[{"id":472,"href":"https:\/\/thoughts.need.management\/index.php\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/267\/revisions\/472"}],"wp:attachment":[{"href":"https:\/\/thoughts.need.management\/index.php\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media?parent=267"}],"wp:term":[{"taxonomy":"category","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/thoughts.need.management\/index.php\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/categories?post=267"},{"taxonomy":"post_tag","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/thoughts.need.management\/index.php\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/tags?post=267"}],"curies":[{"name":"wp","href":"https:\/\/api.w.org\/{rel}","templated":true}]}}